Author Topic: Keeping Track of Bands  (Read 7304 times)

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Offline Kinderchick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 20:43 »
...Peregrines can drink water, but they both adults and chicks get their moisture requirements from their food...
For anyone who feeds their pets a raw food diet, this is similar. My cats can drink water if they choose to but usually do not because, like peregrine falcons, they receive their moisture requirements from their raw food. And raw food is certainly what peregrine falcons eat. ;)

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 18:37 »
TPC, with it being hot outside and the peregrin parents panting to cool themselves, I have a question about dehydration.  Do these birds drink water or do they get enough liquid from the blood found in their prey?  And what about the little eyases?

Peregrines can drink water, but they both adults and chicks get their moisture requirements from their food.  The chicks are alot cooler than their parents - despite what it looks like, their feathers are quite sparse, so they can cool down quickly - all they need is a little shade under their parents.  At this stage they are still unable to thermoregulate, so Princess or Ivy will be with them at all times - if not on or right beside them, then just outside camera view.

Its warm outside but not really hot per se, or at least not as hot as it will be for the West Winnipeg or Brandon birds when their chicks hatch.  What makes it tough for the adults is that the feathers on their back are dark so they can heat up.  The only way they can cool down is to get into the shade or panting.  Since they can't leave the chicks, panting is their only option.  They also drop their wings and angle their bodies to catch whatever breeze may be available - it flows over the chicks and over the adult's breast and that helps some.

Offline RaptorGal

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 16:28 »
TPC, with it being hot outside and the peregrin parents panting to cool themselves, I have a question about dehydration.  Do these birds drink water or do they get enough liquid from the blood found in their prey?  And what about the little eyases?

Offline SusanE

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 21:31 »
TPC, your input is always beyond helpful.  You are so knowledgeable and so generous with that knowledge.  Thank you so much!

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 18:47 »
Couple of notes on your findings ...

1.  Only way to be sure of subspecies is genetically even though they have ranges - there are anatum and anatum/tundrius crosses that nest in the tundrius range and I dare say there are probably a couple of tundrius that have nested down south.  So the band colours are assumptions on subspecies based on location caught and banded.  And yes there are "differences" between the peregrines but there is such a range between birds in each subspecies that without the genetics, one can't be sure, its just a best guess.  Having said that, most of the folks banding birds are very accomplished so their best guess is pretty darn good!

2.  Anatum subspecies peregrines are the traditional subspecies in the continental US and in Canada south of the treeline, excluding the small ranges of the non-migratory pealei along the west coast.  Having said that, in the US pretty much all peregrines in captivity were pressed into the recovery breeding programs so there are lots of other subspecies genes in the US and through dispersal into Canada.  The result is that lots of peregrine populations - Saskatchewan west through Canada and the USA are not pure anatum, however they are probably mostly anatum.  The number of birds that don't migrate in the winter in the USA these days could be a indication of these other subspecies but its hard to know without genetically mapping birds that migrate and those that don't.  Given that before the crash anatum peregrines migrated, the reasons behind many not migrating is interesting, maybe just a trend based on availability of prey or the heat island effect or something else entirely.

3.  Just to amend your list, black, black/green and black/red are all anatum birds - the Eastern US birds are anatums or presumed to be.  Red - these are anatum birds as well, the reintroduction program was just for anatum birds.  The tundrius birds were never endangered and there wasn't a breeding program for/with the subspecies specifically.  Undoubtedly, there are tundrius genes in the Canada/US meta-population but the breeding/reintroduction program was for anatum birds in the anatum's traditional range.

Hope this helps

Offline SusanE

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 10:33 »
Thank you so much, TPC, for your reply.   :)  I may be banging my head against a wall, but I am picking up tidbits here and there and find it so interesting.

It was at the USGS site (http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/bbl/homepage/pefaprot.cfm) that I found this list of color bands used based on geographical location as well as sub-species:

Red - Captive bred
Black/red bicolor - Eastern United States
Black/green bicolor - Eastern United States
Blue - Tundra Peregrines
Black/blue bicolor - Tundra or Anatum captured off the breeding grounds or subspecies unknown
Green - Peale's Peregrines
Black - Anatum Peregrines

I did not realize that some eastern Canadian provinces are also using the bi-color bands.  Do you know which ones?

I also found a map showing where the sub-species are located, which explains why California (and probably several western states) use the B/B bands, since the map shows that 90% of the U.S. and Canada have the Anatum sub-species of peregrine.  That map can be found at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_Falcon)

Thanks again for your help, TPC.  You have filled in many of the blanks.  My hunt continues for more tidbits . . .  8)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 10:35 by SusanE »

Offline birdcamfan

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 21:42 »
That makes sense. Thanks.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2012, 20:23 »
Something I've always wondered-To you knowledge, has a PF with European bands ever been found in North America? Do you think they could go "over the top" and end up in Canada?

I'm afraid I don't know BCF.  Over the top wouldn't make sense since it is beyond nesting grounds and the wrong direction for migrations - and keep in mind that most European peregrines don't migrate, so no real chance to go over anything.  As for other ways to find their way to North America, storms are amazing things, think of that snowy owl in Hawaii last winter, but I'm afraid I haven't heard of any but who knows.

Sorry, not as clear an answer as you would have liked I'm sure ...

Offline birdcamfan

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2012, 20:16 »
Something I've always wondered-To you knowledge, has a PF with European bands ever been found in North America? Do you think they could go "over the top" and end up in Canada?

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 19:57 »
There is no public database of all FWS/CWS bands for any species of birds that are banded.  The reason for this is that the information is scientific and therefore available only by special permission for scientific purposes.  Heck, I as a project coordinator haven't been able to get access to data that I would like to see, but I am working on it.  When birds are observed, the bander is the person notified.  If the bander shares the information for example with our Project, that's great but they don't have to do it.

However there are some databases online that are managed by other organizations/agencies like the Midwest database - but those are voluntary and they rely on the individual banders to keep the records updated which is alot of effort so there is data missing and out-of-date even there. 

As for the band colours - when the reintroduction programs began in the 1980s, everyone in North America used black bands for wild hatched birds and red bands for captive-bred birds released into the wild.  As more and more birds were produced, some multi-coloured bands  (black over green and black over red) were used so that it increases the numbering options - keep in mind that reading a band the size of the tip of your little finger, you really can't have more than 2 digits top or bottom, its just too hard to read them.  So with the additional colour combinations, you have more the ability to repeat digit combinations and that helps when you have lots of birds - like the Midwest.

As for only using one band (the aluminium FWS/CWS band) it technically is the only band that has to be put on - adding the ID band is the norm because there is an interest in identifying the birds, however, its not really necessary.  Just because you know who a bird is, doesn't change what they do.  If you have a peregrine nesting, you have a peregrine nesting regardless of who or where it came from.  And there are lots of unbanded birds out there - either because the nest couldn't be accessed at banding time or because they come from a nest we know nothing about.  We don't try to catch unbanded birds to put bands on them, that would be unnecessary stress and danger for the birds - and we don't need to know who they are, just that they are.  I don't know where Jules came from but that doesn't diminsh her value or her value to the species recovery.

As for which leg, the US likes to be consistent, but that's because most of the banding is done by a few individuals so they have a preference.  We try to band consistently but sometimes we get it wrong by which time its too late to take them off - and sometimes we do it on purpose so that we have a quick way to identify between individuals - for example with lots of chicks in Winnipeg, its easy to identify chicks from one nest based on which leg we have put their coloured bands on.  In addition we put coloured tape on the aluminium band to help with quick identification in the first few months - and that's not something that's done by everyone but it is done by some.

Hope that helps get you started.

Offline SusanE

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 08:36 »
I've recently become interested in banding protocol for peregrine falcons in North America, so this thread is most valuable and educational.  I'm aware of the Midwest Peregrine Society's publicly searchable database, but have not found any resource for searching outside of that area, such as Canada or the western and far eastern states in the U.S.  If anyone knows of another database, would you mind sharing the link?

Also, I used to think that all Canadian PFs were banded with black/black VID bands, but recently learned that California placed B/B VID bands on chicks.  It also appears from my limited research that some states (and maybe provinces also) do not use VID bands at all -- just the federal band. 

Another observation is that sometimes the VID band goes on the left leg and sometimes on the right.   ???  Sorry for this rambling post, but if TPC could shed some light on any of this, I would love to learn more! 

Offline bccs

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2011, 20:58 »
What would we do without bands??

Offline allikat

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2011, 20:57 »
Info. on bands is quite essential, yes! 

Offline Kinderchick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2011, 20:27 »
Yes, I agree with Rose & rcf. Info about bands is very interesting and informative, TPC. Thank you.  :)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 14:00 by Kinderchick »

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2011, 17:30 »
Thank you TPC that was the info I was looking for it's another little bit of knowledge to keep me young and old age at bay :) :-*

Thanks from me also.

You both are very welcome - and one is only as old as their band records Rose  ;)

Offline RCF

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2011, 23:18 »

 Thanks from me also.

Offline Rose

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2011, 23:13 »
Thank you TPC that was the info I was looking for it's another little bit of knowledge to keep me young and old age at bay :) :-*
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 23:15 by Rose »

Offline bcbird

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2011, 22:39 »
This is very interesting.  Thank you for explaining these details, TPC.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2011, 22:35 »
I think Hurricane was thought to be a male by those doing the banding, but the band he/she was given was already the one he/she was going to get, regardless of sex.  Is that right, TPC?

I know female legs are normally bigger, is there any information on the silver bands indicating the sex of the bird or is up to bander to register what he/she thinks the sex is?

We measure leg size to sex our birds at banding.  If a bander found a silver band on a dead peregrine and couldn't tell the gender of the bird by size, then the size of the band (6 or 7A/7B) would tell them what gender the bird was banded as.

If someone submits a band or band number to the banding office, they will provide the gender as well as banding location and age of the bird.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2011, 22:33 »
Male and female bands are different sizes and as such have a different series of numbers - there are 22 sizes of bands used in North America, they are numbered from 0 to 9 (with letters to help differentiate intermediate sizes).  There are also bands for humming birds but they are like thin layers of aluminum foil and don't have a number.

Peregrines take sizes 6 and 7A/7B.  The males wear size 6, females wear 7A/7B.  I think all our females wear 7As, the 7Bs are probably more for use on tundrius birds, they are just that much larger in general.

Each band size has a unique prefix four digits.  Currently the first four digits for our males is 816, for our females it is 1387.  (note the 0 in 0816 is not impressed on the band, its implied).  These numbers are not geographically distinct, rather they were the next numbers in sequence as banders restock their inventory.  Radisson's chicks could also be 816/1387 as too could be birds in Nova Scotia.  Canadian banders get their bands through the Cdn banding office, US banders from the US office.

Remember, each bird has a unique number, so no we won't have 7A bands (female) that start with 816 (a male 6 band prefix).

Offline bcbird

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2011, 22:27 »
I believe it is the latter.  If you look at the number in the records you get the info on the bird.

Offline RCF

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2011, 21:51 »
I think Hurricane was thought to be a male by those doing the banding, but the band he/she was given was already the one he/she was going to get, regardless of sex.  Is that right, TPC?

I know female legs are normally bigger, is there any information on the silver bands indicating the sex of the bird or is up to bander to register what he/she thinks the sex is?

Offline bcbird

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 21:25 »
I think Hurricane was thought to be a male by those doing the banding, but the band he/she was given was already the one he/she was going to get, regardless of sex.  Is that right, TPC?

Offline RCF

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 20:57 »
Okay, I have a question.  Are any of the band numbers/letters, male/female specific?

Nope

Why is the answer no?  Was Hurricane not banded as a male?  ???

Offline Kinderchick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 20:45 »
Very interesting. :)

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 20:40 »
Interesting!  
The FWS/CWS band would identify the date and location of the banding, and also that it was a release from rehab, rather than a chick?

Yes, and that's what happens with lots of bird species - geese get banded as chicks, but when adults are banded its identified as such.  Other species such as piping plovers or loggerhead shrikes (when they are banded) the sequence of bands is reversed when its an adult capture.  For example, say in Manitoba in 2010, the colour combination was red band over silver band on right leg and red band on left leg for chicks, it would be red over silver on left and red on right for adults caught the same year.  In 2011 the colours would be different - blue over silver and blue.  That lets banders tell location banded and age at banding.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 20:34 »
Okay, I have a question.  Are any of the band numbers/letters, male/female specific?

Nope

Offline RCF

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 19:58 »
Okay, I have a question.  Are any of the band numbers/letters, male/female specific?

Offline bcbird

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 19:09 »
Interesting!  
The FWS/CWS band would identify the date and location of the banding, and also that it was a release from rehab, rather than a chick?

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 19:01 »
Very good reading, indeed.
I'm wondering do adults get banded when they come in to a rehab shelter?
The info of birth date and place wouldn't be known, but do banding records allow for rehab and recovery information for an adult?

I don't know if it is a requirement but I do know rehabbed unbanded birds that were banded prior to release though I do recall that it was just the silver FWS/CWS band not the coloured band that was used.  Of the two bands, the silver one would definitely be the requirement.  It is a requirement of a banding permit for band information to be sent to the federal banding office.  And to band requires a permit or more than one depending on the species and jurisdication.

Offline bcbird

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 17:49 »
I first posted this over in the Genesee site, but then thought this is perhaps a better place?

I'm wondering do adult peregrines get banded when they come in to a rehab shelter?
The info of birth date and place wouldn't be known, but do banding records allow for rehab and recovery information on a previously nonbanded adult?

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 16:54 »
I have a further question re banding. Are you sent the band numbers that you need each year when you know the number of birds to be banded or are you given a certain number of bands that you use up and when they are all used you get some more?

No, banders are responsible for maintaining their band supplies and recording/reporting their bands to the appropriate authorities.  As for the numbers, we have no control over the band numbers of either type of bands, they are managed at a federal (Canada/US) level.

Offline Elaine L

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 16:31 »
When I was working at the Wildlife Rehab Centre, they did band any bird that came in without a band, and they kept records on everything, from arrival to release, death or euthanasia.  If the bird was banded, they passed on this information to the proper authorities.

Offline Kinderchick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 15:39 »
... We don't breed birds in captivity and release them so our birds are wild-hatched...
Okay, that's what I thought, but wasn't absolutely sure. Thanks. :)

Offline Rose

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 15:35 »
Thank you for answering both questions, I'm not good at family trees my hubbie is the expert but I should have seen the Pheobe line. I have a further question re banding. Are you sent the band numbers that you need each year when you know the number of birds to be banded or are you given a certain number of bands that you use up and when they are all used you get some more?

As for our nest box being a wild nest we always emphasize to any one we speak to that these are wild birds that just live in the city like any other birds that nest here  ( we have lots of people stop and talk to a funny old and funny middle aged lady with binos  ;D ;D and some people avoid us too) ::) We don't care and just enjoy the falcons :)

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 15:10 »
...Black means wild-hatched, red means captive-bred and released...

So, are our peregrine falcons in the nestboxes here in Manitoba considered "wild-hatched"? :-\ They don't live on a rock cliff in the wild, but is a nestbox on a building in a city considered to be "in the wild"? I know this may sound like a pretty basic question, but I'm really not sure so thought I'd just take a risk and put it out there. :-[

This is where webcams and educational activities like ours are problematic.  Because we keep a close eye on our birds, people often assume that because we are watching them the birds aren't wild.  There are only two technical definitions: wild-hatched or captive-bred.  We don't breed birds in captivity and release them so our birds are wild-hatched.  Its also why lots of projects don't interfere when life goes bad for the birds - they are wild and they are living a wild life.   Like Cowboy's and Kate's egg ... we just left it there so as not to interfere with them and whatever they decide to do next.

Offline Kinderchick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 14:07 »
...Black means wild-hatched, red means captive-bred and released...

So, are our peregrine falcons in the nestboxes here in Manitoba considered "wild-hatched"? :-\ They don't live on a rock cliff in the wild, but is a nestbox on a building in a city considered to be "in the wild"? I know this may sound like a pretty basic question, but I'm really not sure so thought I'd just take a risk and put it out there. :-[

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 13:39 »
1: tried to trace Brooklyns connection to Trey but not smart enough to find it. Hurricanes is easy.(in my family my hubbie is the genealogy freak LOL)

The closest connection is through Phoebe ... who is Phoebe you ask?  Phoebe is Brooklyn's grandma ( McKenzie Seeds Family Tree ) and Trey's aunt ( Radisson Hotel Family Tree )

2: Can you explain the banding numbers,colour of bands and what info is on the opposite band from numbered band and how you arrived at an organized system? My somewhat organized mind would liketo know :) Thank you. :-*

There are two bands, one for reading easily, the other for the official FWS/CWS banding records for North America. 

The readable band is the coloured band and there are currently four colour combinations - black, red, black over green and black over red.  Black means wild-hatched, red means captive-bred and released - those are the bands we have been using here in Manitoba since 1981.  In the US and some parts of eastern Canada, they have included black over green and black over red for wild-hatched birds simply because of the number of pairs and chicks.

The FWS/CWS band is an alumnium band, most are silver though some are now a pink anondized aluminium don't know why the colour, might just last longer or be easier to read when banding.  This band has an unique 9 digit code that is basically the birds "name" in the band records - there are no duplications. 

When we band we record both band numbers and they are both reported/recorded in the official record provincially and federally (the US and Canada co-manage the federal database) and on some other externally-managed regional databases.

Offline Sue

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Re: Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 09:29 »
I was looking at the Canadian Peregrine Foundation website and noted the description of the 3 sub-species of peregrines in North America. I was wondering if they interbreed and which one(s) our local pairs fall into.

Offline Rose

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Keeping Track of Bands
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 08:12 »
Have 2 quetions
 1: tried to trace Brooklyns connection to Trey but not smart enough to find it. Hurricanes is easy.(in my family my hubbie is the genealogy freak LOL)
 2: Can you explain the banding numbers,colour of bands and what info is on the opposite band from numbered band and how you arrived at an organized system? My somewhat organized mind would liketo know :) Thank you. :-*